Is it wrong to have two voices leap from a perfect fifth to a perfect octave?












1















I had a teacher once tell me that although not forbidden, it is not advisable to have the same two voices move from a perfect fifth to a perfect octave (specifically referring to a four-part chorale for SATB chorus). I don't see any reason for this and haven't been able to find anything that addresses that issue specifically. Is that true? And if so, why should it be avoided in good voice-leading?



This can be seen between the tenor and bass in beats 2 and 3 of this bar.



enter image description here










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  • I think this question is related to my first question in SE about "prohibition of the parallels of fifth" and is also answered there (especially the answers concerning history, epoch, harmony and style: music.stackexchange.com/questions/78011/…

    – Albrecht Hügli
    2 hours ago













  • you should be more precise: do you concern a counterpoint of 2 voices, is it a task in counterpoint study or do is it an arrangement of 3 or 4 voices, or even a piano piece?

    – Albrecht Hügli
    2 hours ago






  • 1





    Thank you, I've edited my question :-)

    – Shannon Duncan
    1 hour ago
















1















I had a teacher once tell me that although not forbidden, it is not advisable to have the same two voices move from a perfect fifth to a perfect octave (specifically referring to a four-part chorale for SATB chorus). I don't see any reason for this and haven't been able to find anything that addresses that issue specifically. Is that true? And if so, why should it be avoided in good voice-leading?



This can be seen between the tenor and bass in beats 2 and 3 of this bar.



enter image description here










share|improve this question

























  • I think this question is related to my first question in SE about "prohibition of the parallels of fifth" and is also answered there (especially the answers concerning history, epoch, harmony and style: music.stackexchange.com/questions/78011/…

    – Albrecht Hügli
    2 hours ago













  • you should be more precise: do you concern a counterpoint of 2 voices, is it a task in counterpoint study or do is it an arrangement of 3 or 4 voices, or even a piano piece?

    – Albrecht Hügli
    2 hours ago






  • 1





    Thank you, I've edited my question :-)

    – Shannon Duncan
    1 hour ago














1












1








1








I had a teacher once tell me that although not forbidden, it is not advisable to have the same two voices move from a perfect fifth to a perfect octave (specifically referring to a four-part chorale for SATB chorus). I don't see any reason for this and haven't been able to find anything that addresses that issue specifically. Is that true? And if so, why should it be avoided in good voice-leading?



This can be seen between the tenor and bass in beats 2 and 3 of this bar.



enter image description here










share|improve this question
















I had a teacher once tell me that although not forbidden, it is not advisable to have the same two voices move from a perfect fifth to a perfect octave (specifically referring to a four-part chorale for SATB chorus). I don't see any reason for this and haven't been able to find anything that addresses that issue specifically. Is that true? And if so, why should it be avoided in good voice-leading?



This can be seen between the tenor and bass in beats 2 and 3 of this bar.



enter image description here







theory harmony






share|improve this question















share|improve this question













share|improve this question




share|improve this question








edited 1 hour ago







Shannon Duncan

















asked 3 hours ago









Shannon DuncanShannon Duncan

553314




553314













  • I think this question is related to my first question in SE about "prohibition of the parallels of fifth" and is also answered there (especially the answers concerning history, epoch, harmony and style: music.stackexchange.com/questions/78011/…

    – Albrecht Hügli
    2 hours ago













  • you should be more precise: do you concern a counterpoint of 2 voices, is it a task in counterpoint study or do is it an arrangement of 3 or 4 voices, or even a piano piece?

    – Albrecht Hügli
    2 hours ago






  • 1





    Thank you, I've edited my question :-)

    – Shannon Duncan
    1 hour ago



















  • I think this question is related to my first question in SE about "prohibition of the parallels of fifth" and is also answered there (especially the answers concerning history, epoch, harmony and style: music.stackexchange.com/questions/78011/…

    – Albrecht Hügli
    2 hours ago













  • you should be more precise: do you concern a counterpoint of 2 voices, is it a task in counterpoint study or do is it an arrangement of 3 or 4 voices, or even a piano piece?

    – Albrecht Hügli
    2 hours ago






  • 1





    Thank you, I've edited my question :-)

    – Shannon Duncan
    1 hour ago

















I think this question is related to my first question in SE about "prohibition of the parallels of fifth" and is also answered there (especially the answers concerning history, epoch, harmony and style: music.stackexchange.com/questions/78011/…

– Albrecht Hügli
2 hours ago







I think this question is related to my first question in SE about "prohibition of the parallels of fifth" and is also answered there (especially the answers concerning history, epoch, harmony and style: music.stackexchange.com/questions/78011/…

– Albrecht Hügli
2 hours ago















you should be more precise: do you concern a counterpoint of 2 voices, is it a task in counterpoint study or do is it an arrangement of 3 or 4 voices, or even a piano piece?

– Albrecht Hügli
2 hours ago





you should be more precise: do you concern a counterpoint of 2 voices, is it a task in counterpoint study or do is it an arrangement of 3 or 4 voices, or even a piano piece?

– Albrecht Hügli
2 hours ago




1




1





Thank you, I've edited my question :-)

– Shannon Duncan
1 hour ago





Thank you, I've edited my question :-)

– Shannon Duncan
1 hour ago










3 Answers
3






active

oldest

votes


















2














I have to respectfully disagree with the individual that made this claim. The fact is that it's very common for a perfect fifth to move to an octave; we see it all the time in the V–I progression!



enter image description here



The claim that this is wrong is likely to prevent hidden octaves (also known as "indirect," "covered," "exposed," or "similar" octaves/fifths). In short, these are perfect fifths or octaves that are approached by similar motion between two voices. But there are wildly varying rules for situations in which these fifths/octaves are okay:




  1. If neither the soprano nor the bass are involved, it's fine.

  2. If one of the voices moves by semitone, it's fine.

  3. If the upper voice moves by step, it's fine.


Not knowing the individual that shared this stipulation with you, I can't say which rule s/he prefers.



It's also possible this individual was referring to the fact that two voices "fuse" together when in perfect intervals, and the whole point of counterpoint is for these voices not to fuse together, but rather be independent. Perhaps they felt that two consecutive perfect intervals, even of different sizes, led to this fusing? But that's not a rule that I'm familiar with.






share|improve this answer
























  • Thank you so much for your incredibly helpful answer! It makes perfect sense.

    – Shannon Duncan
    1 hour ago



















1















such rules must have been "invented" by purist teachers as chicane for the students



or generalized from a rule of counterpoint of 2 voices.




There is fundamentalism in every subjects - not only in religion.






share|improve this answer


























  • Where are these quotes from?

    – Dekkadeci
    1 hour ago











  • from me! and probably from Diether da la Motte. (Harmonielehre, Kontrapunkt)

    – Albrecht Hügli
    1 hour ago





















1














In four-part harmony, this rule is not on the "most important" list, but the perfect intervals, sounding so open, can draw attention to themselves when one is followed by another. This can make them stick out in a chorale setting where it contrasts with most of the movement. When the two voices are moving in the same direction, this effect is exaggerated. It can usually be avoided. Often in V-I cadences, if the soprano is on the 2nd scale degree moving down to the tonic, and the bass is in root position moving from V-I, the movement from a P5 to a P8 is in contrary motion, which lessens the effect.



There are many choices that need to be made when part-writing. Sometimes there is no better choice than to move from a P5 to a P8 between two voices, in order to avoid worse movement somewhere else.






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    3 Answers
    3






    active

    oldest

    votes








    3 Answers
    3






    active

    oldest

    votes









    active

    oldest

    votes






    active

    oldest

    votes









    2














    I have to respectfully disagree with the individual that made this claim. The fact is that it's very common for a perfect fifth to move to an octave; we see it all the time in the V–I progression!



    enter image description here



    The claim that this is wrong is likely to prevent hidden octaves (also known as "indirect," "covered," "exposed," or "similar" octaves/fifths). In short, these are perfect fifths or octaves that are approached by similar motion between two voices. But there are wildly varying rules for situations in which these fifths/octaves are okay:




    1. If neither the soprano nor the bass are involved, it's fine.

    2. If one of the voices moves by semitone, it's fine.

    3. If the upper voice moves by step, it's fine.


    Not knowing the individual that shared this stipulation with you, I can't say which rule s/he prefers.



    It's also possible this individual was referring to the fact that two voices "fuse" together when in perfect intervals, and the whole point of counterpoint is for these voices not to fuse together, but rather be independent. Perhaps they felt that two consecutive perfect intervals, even of different sizes, led to this fusing? But that's not a rule that I'm familiar with.






    share|improve this answer
























    • Thank you so much for your incredibly helpful answer! It makes perfect sense.

      – Shannon Duncan
      1 hour ago
















    2














    I have to respectfully disagree with the individual that made this claim. The fact is that it's very common for a perfect fifth to move to an octave; we see it all the time in the V–I progression!



    enter image description here



    The claim that this is wrong is likely to prevent hidden octaves (also known as "indirect," "covered," "exposed," or "similar" octaves/fifths). In short, these are perfect fifths or octaves that are approached by similar motion between two voices. But there are wildly varying rules for situations in which these fifths/octaves are okay:




    1. If neither the soprano nor the bass are involved, it's fine.

    2. If one of the voices moves by semitone, it's fine.

    3. If the upper voice moves by step, it's fine.


    Not knowing the individual that shared this stipulation with you, I can't say which rule s/he prefers.



    It's also possible this individual was referring to the fact that two voices "fuse" together when in perfect intervals, and the whole point of counterpoint is for these voices not to fuse together, but rather be independent. Perhaps they felt that two consecutive perfect intervals, even of different sizes, led to this fusing? But that's not a rule that I'm familiar with.






    share|improve this answer
























    • Thank you so much for your incredibly helpful answer! It makes perfect sense.

      – Shannon Duncan
      1 hour ago














    2












    2








    2







    I have to respectfully disagree with the individual that made this claim. The fact is that it's very common for a perfect fifth to move to an octave; we see it all the time in the V–I progression!



    enter image description here



    The claim that this is wrong is likely to prevent hidden octaves (also known as "indirect," "covered," "exposed," or "similar" octaves/fifths). In short, these are perfect fifths or octaves that are approached by similar motion between two voices. But there are wildly varying rules for situations in which these fifths/octaves are okay:




    1. If neither the soprano nor the bass are involved, it's fine.

    2. If one of the voices moves by semitone, it's fine.

    3. If the upper voice moves by step, it's fine.


    Not knowing the individual that shared this stipulation with you, I can't say which rule s/he prefers.



    It's also possible this individual was referring to the fact that two voices "fuse" together when in perfect intervals, and the whole point of counterpoint is for these voices not to fuse together, but rather be independent. Perhaps they felt that two consecutive perfect intervals, even of different sizes, led to this fusing? But that's not a rule that I'm familiar with.






    share|improve this answer













    I have to respectfully disagree with the individual that made this claim. The fact is that it's very common for a perfect fifth to move to an octave; we see it all the time in the V–I progression!



    enter image description here



    The claim that this is wrong is likely to prevent hidden octaves (also known as "indirect," "covered," "exposed," or "similar" octaves/fifths). In short, these are perfect fifths or octaves that are approached by similar motion between two voices. But there are wildly varying rules for situations in which these fifths/octaves are okay:




    1. If neither the soprano nor the bass are involved, it's fine.

    2. If one of the voices moves by semitone, it's fine.

    3. If the upper voice moves by step, it's fine.


    Not knowing the individual that shared this stipulation with you, I can't say which rule s/he prefers.



    It's also possible this individual was referring to the fact that two voices "fuse" together when in perfect intervals, and the whole point of counterpoint is for these voices not to fuse together, but rather be independent. Perhaps they felt that two consecutive perfect intervals, even of different sizes, led to this fusing? But that's not a rule that I'm familiar with.







    share|improve this answer












    share|improve this answer



    share|improve this answer










    answered 1 hour ago









    RichardRichard

    39.9k689172




    39.9k689172













    • Thank you so much for your incredibly helpful answer! It makes perfect sense.

      – Shannon Duncan
      1 hour ago



















    • Thank you so much for your incredibly helpful answer! It makes perfect sense.

      – Shannon Duncan
      1 hour ago

















    Thank you so much for your incredibly helpful answer! It makes perfect sense.

    – Shannon Duncan
    1 hour ago





    Thank you so much for your incredibly helpful answer! It makes perfect sense.

    – Shannon Duncan
    1 hour ago











    1















    such rules must have been "invented" by purist teachers as chicane for the students



    or generalized from a rule of counterpoint of 2 voices.




    There is fundamentalism in every subjects - not only in religion.






    share|improve this answer


























    • Where are these quotes from?

      – Dekkadeci
      1 hour ago











    • from me! and probably from Diether da la Motte. (Harmonielehre, Kontrapunkt)

      – Albrecht Hügli
      1 hour ago


















    1















    such rules must have been "invented" by purist teachers as chicane for the students



    or generalized from a rule of counterpoint of 2 voices.




    There is fundamentalism in every subjects - not only in religion.






    share|improve this answer


























    • Where are these quotes from?

      – Dekkadeci
      1 hour ago











    • from me! and probably from Diether da la Motte. (Harmonielehre, Kontrapunkt)

      – Albrecht Hügli
      1 hour ago
















    1












    1








    1








    such rules must have been "invented" by purist teachers as chicane for the students



    or generalized from a rule of counterpoint of 2 voices.




    There is fundamentalism in every subjects - not only in religion.






    share|improve this answer
















    such rules must have been "invented" by purist teachers as chicane for the students



    or generalized from a rule of counterpoint of 2 voices.




    There is fundamentalism in every subjects - not only in religion.







    share|improve this answer














    share|improve this answer



    share|improve this answer








    edited 1 hour ago

























    answered 1 hour ago









    Albrecht HügliAlbrecht Hügli

    47312




    47312













    • Where are these quotes from?

      – Dekkadeci
      1 hour ago











    • from me! and probably from Diether da la Motte. (Harmonielehre, Kontrapunkt)

      – Albrecht Hügli
      1 hour ago





















    • Where are these quotes from?

      – Dekkadeci
      1 hour ago











    • from me! and probably from Diether da la Motte. (Harmonielehre, Kontrapunkt)

      – Albrecht Hügli
      1 hour ago



















    Where are these quotes from?

    – Dekkadeci
    1 hour ago





    Where are these quotes from?

    – Dekkadeci
    1 hour ago













    from me! and probably from Diether da la Motte. (Harmonielehre, Kontrapunkt)

    – Albrecht Hügli
    1 hour ago







    from me! and probably from Diether da la Motte. (Harmonielehre, Kontrapunkt)

    – Albrecht Hügli
    1 hour ago













    1














    In four-part harmony, this rule is not on the "most important" list, but the perfect intervals, sounding so open, can draw attention to themselves when one is followed by another. This can make them stick out in a chorale setting where it contrasts with most of the movement. When the two voices are moving in the same direction, this effect is exaggerated. It can usually be avoided. Often in V-I cadences, if the soprano is on the 2nd scale degree moving down to the tonic, and the bass is in root position moving from V-I, the movement from a P5 to a P8 is in contrary motion, which lessens the effect.



    There are many choices that need to be made when part-writing. Sometimes there is no better choice than to move from a P5 to a P8 between two voices, in order to avoid worse movement somewhere else.






    share|improve this answer




























      1














      In four-part harmony, this rule is not on the "most important" list, but the perfect intervals, sounding so open, can draw attention to themselves when one is followed by another. This can make them stick out in a chorale setting where it contrasts with most of the movement. When the two voices are moving in the same direction, this effect is exaggerated. It can usually be avoided. Often in V-I cadences, if the soprano is on the 2nd scale degree moving down to the tonic, and the bass is in root position moving from V-I, the movement from a P5 to a P8 is in contrary motion, which lessens the effect.



      There are many choices that need to be made when part-writing. Sometimes there is no better choice than to move from a P5 to a P8 between two voices, in order to avoid worse movement somewhere else.






      share|improve this answer


























        1












        1








        1







        In four-part harmony, this rule is not on the "most important" list, but the perfect intervals, sounding so open, can draw attention to themselves when one is followed by another. This can make them stick out in a chorale setting where it contrasts with most of the movement. When the two voices are moving in the same direction, this effect is exaggerated. It can usually be avoided. Often in V-I cadences, if the soprano is on the 2nd scale degree moving down to the tonic, and the bass is in root position moving from V-I, the movement from a P5 to a P8 is in contrary motion, which lessens the effect.



        There are many choices that need to be made when part-writing. Sometimes there is no better choice than to move from a P5 to a P8 between two voices, in order to avoid worse movement somewhere else.






        share|improve this answer













        In four-part harmony, this rule is not on the "most important" list, but the perfect intervals, sounding so open, can draw attention to themselves when one is followed by another. This can make them stick out in a chorale setting where it contrasts with most of the movement. When the two voices are moving in the same direction, this effect is exaggerated. It can usually be avoided. Often in V-I cadences, if the soprano is on the 2nd scale degree moving down to the tonic, and the bass is in root position moving from V-I, the movement from a P5 to a P8 is in contrary motion, which lessens the effect.



        There are many choices that need to be made when part-writing. Sometimes there is no better choice than to move from a P5 to a P8 between two voices, in order to avoid worse movement somewhere else.







        share|improve this answer












        share|improve this answer



        share|improve this answer










        answered 30 mins ago









        Heather S.Heather S.

        3,6811320




        3,6811320






























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