Unbreakable Formation vs. Cry of the Carnarium












6















My opponent played Cry of the Carnarium in MTG Arena. I immediately played Unbreakable Formation after. The intended result was for my creatures to not die or get exiled, but they did. Shouldn't Unbreakable Formation resolve, granting me indestructible until end of turn?










share|improve this question









New contributor




Ronnie is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.





















  • As discussed in the answers below, I think a lot of the confusion comes from the way MTG: arena displays loss of toughness. (+0/-2 is not equal to 2 damage, even though MTG:A displays them the same way)

    – Malco
    9 hours ago
















6















My opponent played Cry of the Carnarium in MTG Arena. I immediately played Unbreakable Formation after. The intended result was for my creatures to not die or get exiled, but they did. Shouldn't Unbreakable Formation resolve, granting me indestructible until end of turn?










share|improve this question









New contributor




Ronnie is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.





















  • As discussed in the answers below, I think a lot of the confusion comes from the way MTG: arena displays loss of toughness. (+0/-2 is not equal to 2 damage, even though MTG:A displays them the same way)

    – Malco
    9 hours ago














6












6








6








My opponent played Cry of the Carnarium in MTG Arena. I immediately played Unbreakable Formation after. The intended result was for my creatures to not die or get exiled, but they did. Shouldn't Unbreakable Formation resolve, granting me indestructible until end of turn?










share|improve this question









New contributor




Ronnie is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.












My opponent played Cry of the Carnarium in MTG Arena. I immediately played Unbreakable Formation after. The intended result was for my creatures to not die or get exiled, but they did. Shouldn't Unbreakable Formation resolve, granting me indestructible until end of turn?







magic-the-gathering mtg-arena






share|improve this question









New contributor




Ronnie is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.











share|improve this question









New contributor




Ronnie is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.









share|improve this question




share|improve this question








edited 8 hours ago









doppelgreener

16.2k860123




16.2k860123






New contributor




Ronnie is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.









asked 10 hours ago









RonnieRonnie

311




311




New contributor




Ronnie is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.





New contributor





Ronnie is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.






Ronnie is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.













  • As discussed in the answers below, I think a lot of the confusion comes from the way MTG: arena displays loss of toughness. (+0/-2 is not equal to 2 damage, even though MTG:A displays them the same way)

    – Malco
    9 hours ago



















  • As discussed in the answers below, I think a lot of the confusion comes from the way MTG: arena displays loss of toughness. (+0/-2 is not equal to 2 damage, even though MTG:A displays them the same way)

    – Malco
    9 hours ago

















As discussed in the answers below, I think a lot of the confusion comes from the way MTG: arena displays loss of toughness. (+0/-2 is not equal to 2 damage, even though MTG:A displays them the same way)

– Malco
9 hours ago





As discussed in the answers below, I think a lot of the confusion comes from the way MTG: arena displays loss of toughness. (+0/-2 is not equal to 2 damage, even though MTG:A displays them the same way)

– Malco
9 hours ago










3 Answers
3






active

oldest

votes


















9














The card Unbreakable Formation will not generally save your creatures from dying from Cry of the Carnarium, because the ability Indestructible does not save creatures from dying from toughness loss.



The ability Indestructible is defined in rule 702.12b:




A permanent with indestructible can't be destroyed. Such permanents aren't destroyed by lethal damage, and they ignore the state-based action that checks for lethal damage (see rule 704.5g).




The rule it references, 704.5g, is part of the State-based action rules:




If a creature has toughness greater than 0, and the total damage marked on it is greater than or equal to its toughness, that creature has been dealt lethal damage and is destroyed. Regeneration can replace this event.




The previous rule, 704.5f, says this:




If a creature has toughness 0 or less, it's put into its owner's graveyard. Regeneration can't replace this event.




As you can see, if a creature takes damage greater than or equal to its toughness, it is "destroyed", so Indestructible can stop it. But if a creature loses all of its toughness, it is just put into the graveyard, so Indestructible doesn't do anything about that.



Magic Arena displays damage the same way it displays toughness loss, but they are not the same thing.






share|improve this answer































    6














    Indestructible does not save a creature from dying due to having 0 toughness. It only prevents creatures from being destroyed.




    702.12. Indestructible




    702.12a Indestructible is a static ability.



    702.12b A permanent with indestructible can't be destroyed. Such permanents aren't destroyed by lethal damage, and they ignore the state-based action that checks for lethal damage (see rule 704.5g).





    Dying as a result of having 0 toughness is not being destroyed. A creature with 0 toughness dies because of this state-based action:




    704.5f If a creature has toughness 0 or less, it's put into its owner's graveyard. Regeneration can't replace this event.




    Also see this definition of destroyed in the rules:




    701.7. Destroy




    701.7a To destroy a permanent, move it from the battlefield to its owner's graveyard.



    701.7b The only ways a permanent can be destroyed are as a result of an effect that uses the word "destroy" or as a result of the state-based actions that check for lethal damage (see rule 704.5g) or damage from a source with deathtouch (see rule 704.5h). If a permanent is put into its owner's graveyard for any other reason, it hasn't been "destroyed."





    Similarly, you cannot use regeneration to prevent a creature from dying this way.






    share|improve this answer































      4














      Unbreakable Formation did make your creatures indestructible. Unfortunately, that wasn't enough to save them.



      "Indestructible" means that lethal damage and 'destroy' effects won't destroy your creatures. However, if a creature had zero toughness it dies as a state-based-effect, and that isn't prevented by indestructible. Cry of the Carnarium reduces the power and toughness of your creatures, dodging indestructible.



      Arena confuses this by showing damage as if it was reducing the toughness of the creature, but in actuality the effects are distinct. A 2/2 with two damage still has 2 toughness, but a 2/2 with -2/-2 has 0 toughness.



      (Technically speaking, death by lethal damage is also a state-based-effect, but it's one that is specifically protected against by indestructible. )






      share|improve this answer
























        Your Answer








        StackExchange.ready(function() {
        var channelOptions = {
        tags: "".split(" "),
        id: "147"
        };
        initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);

        StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function() {
        // Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
        if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled) {
        StackExchange.using("snippets", function() {
        createEditor();
        });
        }
        else {
        createEditor();
        }
        });

        function createEditor() {
        StackExchange.prepareEditor({
        heartbeatType: 'answer',
        autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
        convertImagesToLinks: false,
        noModals: true,
        showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
        reputationToPostImages: null,
        bindNavPrevention: true,
        postfix: "",
        imageUploader: {
        brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
        contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
        allowUrls: true
        },
        noCode: true, onDemand: true,
        discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
        ,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
        });


        }
        });






        Ronnie is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.










        draft saved

        draft discarded


















        StackExchange.ready(
        function () {
        StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fboardgames.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f45782%2funbreakable-formation-vs-cry-of-the-carnarium%23new-answer', 'question_page');
        }
        );

        Post as a guest















        Required, but never shown

























        3 Answers
        3






        active

        oldest

        votes








        3 Answers
        3






        active

        oldest

        votes









        active

        oldest

        votes






        active

        oldest

        votes









        9














        The card Unbreakable Formation will not generally save your creatures from dying from Cry of the Carnarium, because the ability Indestructible does not save creatures from dying from toughness loss.



        The ability Indestructible is defined in rule 702.12b:




        A permanent with indestructible can't be destroyed. Such permanents aren't destroyed by lethal damage, and they ignore the state-based action that checks for lethal damage (see rule 704.5g).




        The rule it references, 704.5g, is part of the State-based action rules:




        If a creature has toughness greater than 0, and the total damage marked on it is greater than or equal to its toughness, that creature has been dealt lethal damage and is destroyed. Regeneration can replace this event.




        The previous rule, 704.5f, says this:




        If a creature has toughness 0 or less, it's put into its owner's graveyard. Regeneration can't replace this event.




        As you can see, if a creature takes damage greater than or equal to its toughness, it is "destroyed", so Indestructible can stop it. But if a creature loses all of its toughness, it is just put into the graveyard, so Indestructible doesn't do anything about that.



        Magic Arena displays damage the same way it displays toughness loss, but they are not the same thing.






        share|improve this answer




























          9














          The card Unbreakable Formation will not generally save your creatures from dying from Cry of the Carnarium, because the ability Indestructible does not save creatures from dying from toughness loss.



          The ability Indestructible is defined in rule 702.12b:




          A permanent with indestructible can't be destroyed. Such permanents aren't destroyed by lethal damage, and they ignore the state-based action that checks for lethal damage (see rule 704.5g).




          The rule it references, 704.5g, is part of the State-based action rules:




          If a creature has toughness greater than 0, and the total damage marked on it is greater than or equal to its toughness, that creature has been dealt lethal damage and is destroyed. Regeneration can replace this event.




          The previous rule, 704.5f, says this:




          If a creature has toughness 0 or less, it's put into its owner's graveyard. Regeneration can't replace this event.




          As you can see, if a creature takes damage greater than or equal to its toughness, it is "destroyed", so Indestructible can stop it. But if a creature loses all of its toughness, it is just put into the graveyard, so Indestructible doesn't do anything about that.



          Magic Arena displays damage the same way it displays toughness loss, but they are not the same thing.






          share|improve this answer


























            9












            9








            9







            The card Unbreakable Formation will not generally save your creatures from dying from Cry of the Carnarium, because the ability Indestructible does not save creatures from dying from toughness loss.



            The ability Indestructible is defined in rule 702.12b:




            A permanent with indestructible can't be destroyed. Such permanents aren't destroyed by lethal damage, and they ignore the state-based action that checks for lethal damage (see rule 704.5g).




            The rule it references, 704.5g, is part of the State-based action rules:




            If a creature has toughness greater than 0, and the total damage marked on it is greater than or equal to its toughness, that creature has been dealt lethal damage and is destroyed. Regeneration can replace this event.




            The previous rule, 704.5f, says this:




            If a creature has toughness 0 or less, it's put into its owner's graveyard. Regeneration can't replace this event.




            As you can see, if a creature takes damage greater than or equal to its toughness, it is "destroyed", so Indestructible can stop it. But if a creature loses all of its toughness, it is just put into the graveyard, so Indestructible doesn't do anything about that.



            Magic Arena displays damage the same way it displays toughness loss, but they are not the same thing.






            share|improve this answer













            The card Unbreakable Formation will not generally save your creatures from dying from Cry of the Carnarium, because the ability Indestructible does not save creatures from dying from toughness loss.



            The ability Indestructible is defined in rule 702.12b:




            A permanent with indestructible can't be destroyed. Such permanents aren't destroyed by lethal damage, and they ignore the state-based action that checks for lethal damage (see rule 704.5g).




            The rule it references, 704.5g, is part of the State-based action rules:




            If a creature has toughness greater than 0, and the total damage marked on it is greater than or equal to its toughness, that creature has been dealt lethal damage and is destroyed. Regeneration can replace this event.




            The previous rule, 704.5f, says this:




            If a creature has toughness 0 or less, it's put into its owner's graveyard. Regeneration can't replace this event.




            As you can see, if a creature takes damage greater than or equal to its toughness, it is "destroyed", so Indestructible can stop it. But if a creature loses all of its toughness, it is just put into the graveyard, so Indestructible doesn't do anything about that.



            Magic Arena displays damage the same way it displays toughness loss, but they are not the same thing.







            share|improve this answer












            share|improve this answer



            share|improve this answer










            answered 9 hours ago









            murgatroid99murgatroid99

            48k7120202




            48k7120202























                6














                Indestructible does not save a creature from dying due to having 0 toughness. It only prevents creatures from being destroyed.




                702.12. Indestructible




                702.12a Indestructible is a static ability.



                702.12b A permanent with indestructible can't be destroyed. Such permanents aren't destroyed by lethal damage, and they ignore the state-based action that checks for lethal damage (see rule 704.5g).





                Dying as a result of having 0 toughness is not being destroyed. A creature with 0 toughness dies because of this state-based action:




                704.5f If a creature has toughness 0 or less, it's put into its owner's graveyard. Regeneration can't replace this event.




                Also see this definition of destroyed in the rules:




                701.7. Destroy




                701.7a To destroy a permanent, move it from the battlefield to its owner's graveyard.



                701.7b The only ways a permanent can be destroyed are as a result of an effect that uses the word "destroy" or as a result of the state-based actions that check for lethal damage (see rule 704.5g) or damage from a source with deathtouch (see rule 704.5h). If a permanent is put into its owner's graveyard for any other reason, it hasn't been "destroyed."





                Similarly, you cannot use regeneration to prevent a creature from dying this way.






                share|improve this answer




























                  6














                  Indestructible does not save a creature from dying due to having 0 toughness. It only prevents creatures from being destroyed.




                  702.12. Indestructible




                  702.12a Indestructible is a static ability.



                  702.12b A permanent with indestructible can't be destroyed. Such permanents aren't destroyed by lethal damage, and they ignore the state-based action that checks for lethal damage (see rule 704.5g).





                  Dying as a result of having 0 toughness is not being destroyed. A creature with 0 toughness dies because of this state-based action:




                  704.5f If a creature has toughness 0 or less, it's put into its owner's graveyard. Regeneration can't replace this event.




                  Also see this definition of destroyed in the rules:




                  701.7. Destroy




                  701.7a To destroy a permanent, move it from the battlefield to its owner's graveyard.



                  701.7b The only ways a permanent can be destroyed are as a result of an effect that uses the word "destroy" or as a result of the state-based actions that check for lethal damage (see rule 704.5g) or damage from a source with deathtouch (see rule 704.5h). If a permanent is put into its owner's graveyard for any other reason, it hasn't been "destroyed."





                  Similarly, you cannot use regeneration to prevent a creature from dying this way.






                  share|improve this answer


























                    6












                    6








                    6







                    Indestructible does not save a creature from dying due to having 0 toughness. It only prevents creatures from being destroyed.




                    702.12. Indestructible




                    702.12a Indestructible is a static ability.



                    702.12b A permanent with indestructible can't be destroyed. Such permanents aren't destroyed by lethal damage, and they ignore the state-based action that checks for lethal damage (see rule 704.5g).





                    Dying as a result of having 0 toughness is not being destroyed. A creature with 0 toughness dies because of this state-based action:




                    704.5f If a creature has toughness 0 or less, it's put into its owner's graveyard. Regeneration can't replace this event.




                    Also see this definition of destroyed in the rules:




                    701.7. Destroy




                    701.7a To destroy a permanent, move it from the battlefield to its owner's graveyard.



                    701.7b The only ways a permanent can be destroyed are as a result of an effect that uses the word "destroy" or as a result of the state-based actions that check for lethal damage (see rule 704.5g) or damage from a source with deathtouch (see rule 704.5h). If a permanent is put into its owner's graveyard for any other reason, it hasn't been "destroyed."





                    Similarly, you cannot use regeneration to prevent a creature from dying this way.






                    share|improve this answer













                    Indestructible does not save a creature from dying due to having 0 toughness. It only prevents creatures from being destroyed.




                    702.12. Indestructible




                    702.12a Indestructible is a static ability.



                    702.12b A permanent with indestructible can't be destroyed. Such permanents aren't destroyed by lethal damage, and they ignore the state-based action that checks for lethal damage (see rule 704.5g).





                    Dying as a result of having 0 toughness is not being destroyed. A creature with 0 toughness dies because of this state-based action:




                    704.5f If a creature has toughness 0 or less, it's put into its owner's graveyard. Regeneration can't replace this event.




                    Also see this definition of destroyed in the rules:




                    701.7. Destroy




                    701.7a To destroy a permanent, move it from the battlefield to its owner's graveyard.



                    701.7b The only ways a permanent can be destroyed are as a result of an effect that uses the word "destroy" or as a result of the state-based actions that check for lethal damage (see rule 704.5g) or damage from a source with deathtouch (see rule 704.5h). If a permanent is put into its owner's graveyard for any other reason, it hasn't been "destroyed."





                    Similarly, you cannot use regeneration to prevent a creature from dying this way.







                    share|improve this answer












                    share|improve this answer



                    share|improve this answer










                    answered 9 hours ago









                    GendoIkariGendoIkari

                    44.6k394172




                    44.6k394172























                        4














                        Unbreakable Formation did make your creatures indestructible. Unfortunately, that wasn't enough to save them.



                        "Indestructible" means that lethal damage and 'destroy' effects won't destroy your creatures. However, if a creature had zero toughness it dies as a state-based-effect, and that isn't prevented by indestructible. Cry of the Carnarium reduces the power and toughness of your creatures, dodging indestructible.



                        Arena confuses this by showing damage as if it was reducing the toughness of the creature, but in actuality the effects are distinct. A 2/2 with two damage still has 2 toughness, but a 2/2 with -2/-2 has 0 toughness.



                        (Technically speaking, death by lethal damage is also a state-based-effect, but it's one that is specifically protected against by indestructible. )






                        share|improve this answer




























                          4














                          Unbreakable Formation did make your creatures indestructible. Unfortunately, that wasn't enough to save them.



                          "Indestructible" means that lethal damage and 'destroy' effects won't destroy your creatures. However, if a creature had zero toughness it dies as a state-based-effect, and that isn't prevented by indestructible. Cry of the Carnarium reduces the power and toughness of your creatures, dodging indestructible.



                          Arena confuses this by showing damage as if it was reducing the toughness of the creature, but in actuality the effects are distinct. A 2/2 with two damage still has 2 toughness, but a 2/2 with -2/-2 has 0 toughness.



                          (Technically speaking, death by lethal damage is also a state-based-effect, but it's one that is specifically protected against by indestructible. )






                          share|improve this answer


























                            4












                            4








                            4







                            Unbreakable Formation did make your creatures indestructible. Unfortunately, that wasn't enough to save them.



                            "Indestructible" means that lethal damage and 'destroy' effects won't destroy your creatures. However, if a creature had zero toughness it dies as a state-based-effect, and that isn't prevented by indestructible. Cry of the Carnarium reduces the power and toughness of your creatures, dodging indestructible.



                            Arena confuses this by showing damage as if it was reducing the toughness of the creature, but in actuality the effects are distinct. A 2/2 with two damage still has 2 toughness, but a 2/2 with -2/-2 has 0 toughness.



                            (Technically speaking, death by lethal damage is also a state-based-effect, but it's one that is specifically protected against by indestructible. )






                            share|improve this answer













                            Unbreakable Formation did make your creatures indestructible. Unfortunately, that wasn't enough to save them.



                            "Indestructible" means that lethal damage and 'destroy' effects won't destroy your creatures. However, if a creature had zero toughness it dies as a state-based-effect, and that isn't prevented by indestructible. Cry of the Carnarium reduces the power and toughness of your creatures, dodging indestructible.



                            Arena confuses this by showing damage as if it was reducing the toughness of the creature, but in actuality the effects are distinct. A 2/2 with two damage still has 2 toughness, but a 2/2 with -2/-2 has 0 toughness.



                            (Technically speaking, death by lethal damage is also a state-based-effect, but it's one that is specifically protected against by indestructible. )







                            share|improve this answer












                            share|improve this answer



                            share|improve this answer










                            answered 9 hours ago









                            Arcanist LupusArcanist Lupus

                            4,1871824




                            4,1871824






















                                Ronnie is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.










                                draft saved

                                draft discarded


















                                Ronnie is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.













                                Ronnie is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.












                                Ronnie is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
















                                Thanks for contributing an answer to Board & Card Games Stack Exchange!


                                • Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!

                                But avoid



                                • Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.

                                • Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.


                                To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.




                                draft saved


                                draft discarded














                                StackExchange.ready(
                                function () {
                                StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fboardgames.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f45782%2funbreakable-formation-vs-cry-of-the-carnarium%23new-answer', 'question_page');
                                }
                                );

                                Post as a guest















                                Required, but never shown





















































                                Required, but never shown














                                Required, but never shown












                                Required, but never shown







                                Required, but never shown

































                                Required, but never shown














                                Required, but never shown












                                Required, but never shown







                                Required, but never shown







                                Popular posts from this blog

                                Ponta tanko

                                Tantalo (mitologio)

                                Erzsébet Schaár