How should I handle a paladin player character killing foes after they surrender?












1












$begingroup$


Recently my players were raiding a criminal headquarters. These were not nice people: drug runners, loan sharks, things like that. However, as the fight went poorly and they were unable to run away, a number of the criminals surrendered. One literally ducking into a cabinet and curling up to hide, even when it was opened.



The paladin proceeded to directly kill one of these surrendered foes, and advocate the rest, reasoning that their involvement with the gang was reason enough. While they were in the criminals base, they were still within the city. This Paladin is also lawful good and a paladin of Bahamut.



They were working with the guard, and have a friend that is Captain of the district they were in, so legally they should be able to clear this up, but I'm trying to decide if there should be a greater consequence. Would it be wrong to have a temporary dampening of his Paladin powers to show his God's displeasure?



For the record, the group is level 5-10 at this point.










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  • 3




    $begingroup$
    What oath did the paladin take?
    $endgroup$
    – Jon
    4 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    It was a homebrew oath we had agreed to. In short, it does not directly have any tenants in regards to mercy/redemption. The oath is based around striking down tyrants.
    $endgroup$
    – user52158
    4 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Is the fact that he is a paladin relevant? Would it make a difference if he was a lawful good wizard?, or an LG monk? Would you be concerned about punitive actions in these latter cases?
    $endgroup$
    – keithcurtis
    4 hours ago






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    [Related] How do you decide when a paladin has fallen from grace in DnD 5e?, Are Paladin Tenets Subjective?, Is there anything preventing a Lawful Evil Paladin?, How do I get my PCs to not be a bunch of murderous cretins?
    $endgroup$
    – MikeQ
    4 hours ago








  • 3




    $begingroup$
    @Jon: Don't answer in comments. Leave answers as actual answers. ("You don't need to do anything in this case" is still an answer to OP's question.)
    $endgroup$
    – V2Blast
    3 hours ago
















1












$begingroup$


Recently my players were raiding a criminal headquarters. These were not nice people: drug runners, loan sharks, things like that. However, as the fight went poorly and they were unable to run away, a number of the criminals surrendered. One literally ducking into a cabinet and curling up to hide, even when it was opened.



The paladin proceeded to directly kill one of these surrendered foes, and advocate the rest, reasoning that their involvement with the gang was reason enough. While they were in the criminals base, they were still within the city. This Paladin is also lawful good and a paladin of Bahamut.



They were working with the guard, and have a friend that is Captain of the district they were in, so legally they should be able to clear this up, but I'm trying to decide if there should be a greater consequence. Would it be wrong to have a temporary dampening of his Paladin powers to show his God's displeasure?



For the record, the group is level 5-10 at this point.










share|improve this question









New contributor




user52158 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.







$endgroup$








  • 3




    $begingroup$
    What oath did the paladin take?
    $endgroup$
    – Jon
    4 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    It was a homebrew oath we had agreed to. In short, it does not directly have any tenants in regards to mercy/redemption. The oath is based around striking down tyrants.
    $endgroup$
    – user52158
    4 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Is the fact that he is a paladin relevant? Would it make a difference if he was a lawful good wizard?, or an LG monk? Would you be concerned about punitive actions in these latter cases?
    $endgroup$
    – keithcurtis
    4 hours ago






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    [Related] How do you decide when a paladin has fallen from grace in DnD 5e?, Are Paladin Tenets Subjective?, Is there anything preventing a Lawful Evil Paladin?, How do I get my PCs to not be a bunch of murderous cretins?
    $endgroup$
    – MikeQ
    4 hours ago








  • 3




    $begingroup$
    @Jon: Don't answer in comments. Leave answers as actual answers. ("You don't need to do anything in this case" is still an answer to OP's question.)
    $endgroup$
    – V2Blast
    3 hours ago














1












1








1





$begingroup$


Recently my players were raiding a criminal headquarters. These were not nice people: drug runners, loan sharks, things like that. However, as the fight went poorly and they were unable to run away, a number of the criminals surrendered. One literally ducking into a cabinet and curling up to hide, even when it was opened.



The paladin proceeded to directly kill one of these surrendered foes, and advocate the rest, reasoning that their involvement with the gang was reason enough. While they were in the criminals base, they were still within the city. This Paladin is also lawful good and a paladin of Bahamut.



They were working with the guard, and have a friend that is Captain of the district they were in, so legally they should be able to clear this up, but I'm trying to decide if there should be a greater consequence. Would it be wrong to have a temporary dampening of his Paladin powers to show his God's displeasure?



For the record, the group is level 5-10 at this point.










share|improve this question









New contributor




user52158 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.







$endgroup$




Recently my players were raiding a criminal headquarters. These were not nice people: drug runners, loan sharks, things like that. However, as the fight went poorly and they were unable to run away, a number of the criminals surrendered. One literally ducking into a cabinet and curling up to hide, even when it was opened.



The paladin proceeded to directly kill one of these surrendered foes, and advocate the rest, reasoning that their involvement with the gang was reason enough. While they were in the criminals base, they were still within the city. This Paladin is also lawful good and a paladin of Bahamut.



They were working with the guard, and have a friend that is Captain of the district they were in, so legally they should be able to clear this up, but I'm trying to decide if there should be a greater consequence. Would it be wrong to have a temporary dampening of his Paladin powers to show his God's displeasure?



For the record, the group is level 5-10 at this point.







dnd-5e paladin






share|improve this question









New contributor




user52158 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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share|improve this question









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Check out our Code of Conduct.









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share|improve this question








edited 3 hours ago









V2Blast

22k366139




22k366139






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asked 4 hours ago









user52158user52158

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New contributor





user52158 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.






user52158 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.








  • 3




    $begingroup$
    What oath did the paladin take?
    $endgroup$
    – Jon
    4 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    It was a homebrew oath we had agreed to. In short, it does not directly have any tenants in regards to mercy/redemption. The oath is based around striking down tyrants.
    $endgroup$
    – user52158
    4 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Is the fact that he is a paladin relevant? Would it make a difference if he was a lawful good wizard?, or an LG monk? Would you be concerned about punitive actions in these latter cases?
    $endgroup$
    – keithcurtis
    4 hours ago






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    [Related] How do you decide when a paladin has fallen from grace in DnD 5e?, Are Paladin Tenets Subjective?, Is there anything preventing a Lawful Evil Paladin?, How do I get my PCs to not be a bunch of murderous cretins?
    $endgroup$
    – MikeQ
    4 hours ago








  • 3




    $begingroup$
    @Jon: Don't answer in comments. Leave answers as actual answers. ("You don't need to do anything in this case" is still an answer to OP's question.)
    $endgroup$
    – V2Blast
    3 hours ago














  • 3




    $begingroup$
    What oath did the paladin take?
    $endgroup$
    – Jon
    4 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    It was a homebrew oath we had agreed to. In short, it does not directly have any tenants in regards to mercy/redemption. The oath is based around striking down tyrants.
    $endgroup$
    – user52158
    4 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Is the fact that he is a paladin relevant? Would it make a difference if he was a lawful good wizard?, or an LG monk? Would you be concerned about punitive actions in these latter cases?
    $endgroup$
    – keithcurtis
    4 hours ago






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    [Related] How do you decide when a paladin has fallen from grace in DnD 5e?, Are Paladin Tenets Subjective?, Is there anything preventing a Lawful Evil Paladin?, How do I get my PCs to not be a bunch of murderous cretins?
    $endgroup$
    – MikeQ
    4 hours ago








  • 3




    $begingroup$
    @Jon: Don't answer in comments. Leave answers as actual answers. ("You don't need to do anything in this case" is still an answer to OP's question.)
    $endgroup$
    – V2Blast
    3 hours ago








3




3




$begingroup$
What oath did the paladin take?
$endgroup$
– Jon
4 hours ago




$begingroup$
What oath did the paladin take?
$endgroup$
– Jon
4 hours ago




1




1




$begingroup$
It was a homebrew oath we had agreed to. In short, it does not directly have any tenants in regards to mercy/redemption. The oath is based around striking down tyrants.
$endgroup$
– user52158
4 hours ago




$begingroup$
It was a homebrew oath we had agreed to. In short, it does not directly have any tenants in regards to mercy/redemption. The oath is based around striking down tyrants.
$endgroup$
– user52158
4 hours ago




1




1




$begingroup$
Is the fact that he is a paladin relevant? Would it make a difference if he was a lawful good wizard?, or an LG monk? Would you be concerned about punitive actions in these latter cases?
$endgroup$
– keithcurtis
4 hours ago




$begingroup$
Is the fact that he is a paladin relevant? Would it make a difference if he was a lawful good wizard?, or an LG monk? Would you be concerned about punitive actions in these latter cases?
$endgroup$
– keithcurtis
4 hours ago




2




2




$begingroup$
[Related] How do you decide when a paladin has fallen from grace in DnD 5e?, Are Paladin Tenets Subjective?, Is there anything preventing a Lawful Evil Paladin?, How do I get my PCs to not be a bunch of murderous cretins?
$endgroup$
– MikeQ
4 hours ago






$begingroup$
[Related] How do you decide when a paladin has fallen from grace in DnD 5e?, Are Paladin Tenets Subjective?, Is there anything preventing a Lawful Evil Paladin?, How do I get my PCs to not be a bunch of murderous cretins?
$endgroup$
– MikeQ
4 hours ago






3




3




$begingroup$
@Jon: Don't answer in comments. Leave answers as actual answers. ("You don't need to do anything in this case" is still an answer to OP's question.)
$endgroup$
– V2Blast
3 hours ago




$begingroup$
@Jon: Don't answer in comments. Leave answers as actual answers. ("You don't need to do anything in this case" is still an answer to OP's question.)
$endgroup$
– V2Blast
3 hours ago










3 Answers
3






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oldest

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8












$begingroup$


Strictly speaking, the paladin didn't do anything wrong. You should do nothing.



You said in commenting on your question that his oath "does not directly have any [tenets] in regards to mercy/redemption. The oath is based around striking down tyrants." Seems like your Paladin does that, and that's enough.



There are many definitions of what is "Good" in the world. IRL when William the Conqueror installed Feudalism in England in the 11th century the moral code of his knights involved three, and only three, virtues: courage, loyalty and generosity. Note that forgiveness is not among these (generosity was interpreted as helping good people in need even when they have no means of repaying the favor). That's just one example of how being "lawful good" can exclude the sort of mercy you were hoping to see.



Your paladin's being lawful good does oblige him to certain codes of conduct, but mercy on defeated thugs isn't part of it, based on your own description of his oath. So he's being true to character. I might have even awarded him Inspiration.






share|improve this answer









$endgroup$





















    2












    $begingroup$

    There is a problem, but not with his oath or power.




    Whether sworn before a god's altar and the witness of a priest, in a sacred glade before nature spirits and fey beings, or in a moment of desperation and grief with the dead as the only witness, a paladin's oath is a powerful bond. It is a source of power that turns a devout warrior into a blessed champion.




    A paladin draws his power from his oath, and doesn't rely on the benevolence of a god. As long as he's staying true to his oath, his paladin abilities wouldn't be affected. And it sounds like the character is an anti-hero who's willing to hurt people to serve the greater good, which is exactly what he did.



    ...That being said, from a lore and RP perspective, if he's part of a paladin order of Bahamut, they're going to be a bit annoyed with him. Bahamut is:




    a deity of good dragons, metallic dragons, wisdom, and enlightened justice (justice tempered with mercy and punishment with forgiveness)




    If you want to draw attention to this, it shouldn't be a mechanical punishment, because he hasn't done anything wrong mechanically. Instead, he might get a psychic message from his order, reprimanding him for going too far. Followers of more violent justice gods like Hoar or Tyr might praise his actions and try to lure him to a god more accepting of his willingness to fight.



    Keep in mind, this should not be punishment. Again, he did nothing wrong. Any consequences should be purely part of the evolving story, not an attempt to change his character for him.






    share|improve this answer











    $endgroup$





















      1












      $begingroup$

      Don't use in-game mechanics to punish players



      It makes them try harder. Either that or they will resent you punishing them. Show respect for their decisions and talk to him about how he is not following his code correctly, rather than coming out of the blue with it and making him angry with you.






      share|improve this answer











      $endgroup$













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        3 Answers
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        active

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        3 Answers
        3






        active

        oldest

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        active

        oldest

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        active

        oldest

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        8












        $begingroup$


        Strictly speaking, the paladin didn't do anything wrong. You should do nothing.



        You said in commenting on your question that his oath "does not directly have any [tenets] in regards to mercy/redemption. The oath is based around striking down tyrants." Seems like your Paladin does that, and that's enough.



        There are many definitions of what is "Good" in the world. IRL when William the Conqueror installed Feudalism in England in the 11th century the moral code of his knights involved three, and only three, virtues: courage, loyalty and generosity. Note that forgiveness is not among these (generosity was interpreted as helping good people in need even when they have no means of repaying the favor). That's just one example of how being "lawful good" can exclude the sort of mercy you were hoping to see.



        Your paladin's being lawful good does oblige him to certain codes of conduct, but mercy on defeated thugs isn't part of it, based on your own description of his oath. So he's being true to character. I might have even awarded him Inspiration.






        share|improve this answer









        $endgroup$


















          8












          $begingroup$


          Strictly speaking, the paladin didn't do anything wrong. You should do nothing.



          You said in commenting on your question that his oath "does not directly have any [tenets] in regards to mercy/redemption. The oath is based around striking down tyrants." Seems like your Paladin does that, and that's enough.



          There are many definitions of what is "Good" in the world. IRL when William the Conqueror installed Feudalism in England in the 11th century the moral code of his knights involved three, and only three, virtues: courage, loyalty and generosity. Note that forgiveness is not among these (generosity was interpreted as helping good people in need even when they have no means of repaying the favor). That's just one example of how being "lawful good" can exclude the sort of mercy you were hoping to see.



          Your paladin's being lawful good does oblige him to certain codes of conduct, but mercy on defeated thugs isn't part of it, based on your own description of his oath. So he's being true to character. I might have even awarded him Inspiration.






          share|improve this answer









          $endgroup$
















            8












            8








            8





            $begingroup$


            Strictly speaking, the paladin didn't do anything wrong. You should do nothing.



            You said in commenting on your question that his oath "does not directly have any [tenets] in regards to mercy/redemption. The oath is based around striking down tyrants." Seems like your Paladin does that, and that's enough.



            There are many definitions of what is "Good" in the world. IRL when William the Conqueror installed Feudalism in England in the 11th century the moral code of his knights involved three, and only three, virtues: courage, loyalty and generosity. Note that forgiveness is not among these (generosity was interpreted as helping good people in need even when they have no means of repaying the favor). That's just one example of how being "lawful good" can exclude the sort of mercy you were hoping to see.



            Your paladin's being lawful good does oblige him to certain codes of conduct, but mercy on defeated thugs isn't part of it, based on your own description of his oath. So he's being true to character. I might have even awarded him Inspiration.






            share|improve this answer









            $endgroup$




            Strictly speaking, the paladin didn't do anything wrong. You should do nothing.



            You said in commenting on your question that his oath "does not directly have any [tenets] in regards to mercy/redemption. The oath is based around striking down tyrants." Seems like your Paladin does that, and that's enough.



            There are many definitions of what is "Good" in the world. IRL when William the Conqueror installed Feudalism in England in the 11th century the moral code of his knights involved three, and only three, virtues: courage, loyalty and generosity. Note that forgiveness is not among these (generosity was interpreted as helping good people in need even when they have no means of repaying the favor). That's just one example of how being "lawful good" can exclude the sort of mercy you were hoping to see.



            Your paladin's being lawful good does oblige him to certain codes of conduct, but mercy on defeated thugs isn't part of it, based on your own description of his oath. So he's being true to character. I might have even awarded him Inspiration.







            share|improve this answer












            share|improve this answer



            share|improve this answer










            answered 3 hours ago









            Valley LadValley Lad

            2,168727




            2,168727

























                2












                $begingroup$

                There is a problem, but not with his oath or power.




                Whether sworn before a god's altar and the witness of a priest, in a sacred glade before nature spirits and fey beings, or in a moment of desperation and grief with the dead as the only witness, a paladin's oath is a powerful bond. It is a source of power that turns a devout warrior into a blessed champion.




                A paladin draws his power from his oath, and doesn't rely on the benevolence of a god. As long as he's staying true to his oath, his paladin abilities wouldn't be affected. And it sounds like the character is an anti-hero who's willing to hurt people to serve the greater good, which is exactly what he did.



                ...That being said, from a lore and RP perspective, if he's part of a paladin order of Bahamut, they're going to be a bit annoyed with him. Bahamut is:




                a deity of good dragons, metallic dragons, wisdom, and enlightened justice (justice tempered with mercy and punishment with forgiveness)




                If you want to draw attention to this, it shouldn't be a mechanical punishment, because he hasn't done anything wrong mechanically. Instead, he might get a psychic message from his order, reprimanding him for going too far. Followers of more violent justice gods like Hoar or Tyr might praise his actions and try to lure him to a god more accepting of his willingness to fight.



                Keep in mind, this should not be punishment. Again, he did nothing wrong. Any consequences should be purely part of the evolving story, not an attempt to change his character for him.






                share|improve this answer











                $endgroup$


















                  2












                  $begingroup$

                  There is a problem, but not with his oath or power.




                  Whether sworn before a god's altar and the witness of a priest, in a sacred glade before nature spirits and fey beings, or in a moment of desperation and grief with the dead as the only witness, a paladin's oath is a powerful bond. It is a source of power that turns a devout warrior into a blessed champion.




                  A paladin draws his power from his oath, and doesn't rely on the benevolence of a god. As long as he's staying true to his oath, his paladin abilities wouldn't be affected. And it sounds like the character is an anti-hero who's willing to hurt people to serve the greater good, which is exactly what he did.



                  ...That being said, from a lore and RP perspective, if he's part of a paladin order of Bahamut, they're going to be a bit annoyed with him. Bahamut is:




                  a deity of good dragons, metallic dragons, wisdom, and enlightened justice (justice tempered with mercy and punishment with forgiveness)




                  If you want to draw attention to this, it shouldn't be a mechanical punishment, because he hasn't done anything wrong mechanically. Instead, he might get a psychic message from his order, reprimanding him for going too far. Followers of more violent justice gods like Hoar or Tyr might praise his actions and try to lure him to a god more accepting of his willingness to fight.



                  Keep in mind, this should not be punishment. Again, he did nothing wrong. Any consequences should be purely part of the evolving story, not an attempt to change his character for him.






                  share|improve this answer











                  $endgroup$
















                    2












                    2








                    2





                    $begingroup$

                    There is a problem, but not with his oath or power.




                    Whether sworn before a god's altar and the witness of a priest, in a sacred glade before nature spirits and fey beings, or in a moment of desperation and grief with the dead as the only witness, a paladin's oath is a powerful bond. It is a source of power that turns a devout warrior into a blessed champion.




                    A paladin draws his power from his oath, and doesn't rely on the benevolence of a god. As long as he's staying true to his oath, his paladin abilities wouldn't be affected. And it sounds like the character is an anti-hero who's willing to hurt people to serve the greater good, which is exactly what he did.



                    ...That being said, from a lore and RP perspective, if he's part of a paladin order of Bahamut, they're going to be a bit annoyed with him. Bahamut is:




                    a deity of good dragons, metallic dragons, wisdom, and enlightened justice (justice tempered with mercy and punishment with forgiveness)




                    If you want to draw attention to this, it shouldn't be a mechanical punishment, because he hasn't done anything wrong mechanically. Instead, he might get a psychic message from his order, reprimanding him for going too far. Followers of more violent justice gods like Hoar or Tyr might praise his actions and try to lure him to a god more accepting of his willingness to fight.



                    Keep in mind, this should not be punishment. Again, he did nothing wrong. Any consequences should be purely part of the evolving story, not an attempt to change his character for him.






                    share|improve this answer











                    $endgroup$



                    There is a problem, but not with his oath or power.




                    Whether sworn before a god's altar and the witness of a priest, in a sacred glade before nature spirits and fey beings, or in a moment of desperation and grief with the dead as the only witness, a paladin's oath is a powerful bond. It is a source of power that turns a devout warrior into a blessed champion.




                    A paladin draws his power from his oath, and doesn't rely on the benevolence of a god. As long as he's staying true to his oath, his paladin abilities wouldn't be affected. And it sounds like the character is an anti-hero who's willing to hurt people to serve the greater good, which is exactly what he did.



                    ...That being said, from a lore and RP perspective, if he's part of a paladin order of Bahamut, they're going to be a bit annoyed with him. Bahamut is:




                    a deity of good dragons, metallic dragons, wisdom, and enlightened justice (justice tempered with mercy and punishment with forgiveness)




                    If you want to draw attention to this, it shouldn't be a mechanical punishment, because he hasn't done anything wrong mechanically. Instead, he might get a psychic message from his order, reprimanding him for going too far. Followers of more violent justice gods like Hoar or Tyr might praise his actions and try to lure him to a god more accepting of his willingness to fight.



                    Keep in mind, this should not be punishment. Again, he did nothing wrong. Any consequences should be purely part of the evolving story, not an attempt to change his character for him.







                    share|improve this answer














                    share|improve this answer



                    share|improve this answer








                    edited 20 mins ago

























                    answered 26 mins ago









                    Miles BedingerMiles Bedinger

                    1,540116




                    1,540116























                        1












                        $begingroup$

                        Don't use in-game mechanics to punish players



                        It makes them try harder. Either that or they will resent you punishing them. Show respect for their decisions and talk to him about how he is not following his code correctly, rather than coming out of the blue with it and making him angry with you.






                        share|improve this answer











                        $endgroup$


















                          1












                          $begingroup$

                          Don't use in-game mechanics to punish players



                          It makes them try harder. Either that or they will resent you punishing them. Show respect for their decisions and talk to him about how he is not following his code correctly, rather than coming out of the blue with it and making him angry with you.






                          share|improve this answer











                          $endgroup$
















                            1












                            1








                            1





                            $begingroup$

                            Don't use in-game mechanics to punish players



                            It makes them try harder. Either that or they will resent you punishing them. Show respect for their decisions and talk to him about how he is not following his code correctly, rather than coming out of the blue with it and making him angry with you.






                            share|improve this answer











                            $endgroup$



                            Don't use in-game mechanics to punish players



                            It makes them try harder. Either that or they will resent you punishing them. Show respect for their decisions and talk to him about how he is not following his code correctly, rather than coming out of the blue with it and making him angry with you.







                            share|improve this answer














                            share|improve this answer



                            share|improve this answer








                            edited 1 hour ago









                            V2Blast

                            22k366139




                            22k366139










                            answered 3 hours ago









                            user50904user50904

                            6311




                            6311






















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                                user52158 is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.













                                user52158 is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.












                                user52158 is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
















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